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http://forum.philboxing.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=110093

YAKMAN wrote:
We recognize the terrible and vengeful God that’s why we do not want to antagonize him.
gejable wrote:
Let me add to this, bro, just in case some may think that’s the only reason why we believe. There are actually four, the next three, I suppose are deeper reasons why:

1. holy fear – which is quite different than fear of His wrath as you mentioned
2. reverence of His majesty
3. submission to His authority
4. dread of His wrath – this is what you mentioned above.

rickym wrote:
i don’t see anything which says that religion is rational and that’s why you believe. then why do people here even bother debating about whether god exists. you believe because you are simply afraid that’s it. in law that would be an open and shut case.

to say that you believe because of rationality would make you guilty of the “psychological defense mechanism” called “denial”. and in some cases you would even be thought to be a liar, at the very least, rationally inconsistent.

is this typical of a lot of christians, or is it only the christians in this forum? and is this an official thing or not?

so would you lie and say that your belief is due to rationality, or is it because you were under denial in the first place?

but let me say that i commend you in your honesty, knowing you are in denial is one of the first steps towards healing.

gejable you said:
“We recognize the terrible and vengeful God that’s why we do not want to antagonize him. ”

so you admit that god is not moral?

The quotation above is a discussion in an internet forum a few days ago. Theists have long been debating with atheists in two forums I go to that there is proof that God exists. Now I get to read this. Sometimes you begin to wonder whether the theists I have been debating with actually believe that God exists or just want to parrot that phrase for fear of eternal damnation.

As for the ‘psychological defense mechanism’ I mentioned. You could take a look at another blog article that I had made earlier.

https://thecriticalthinker.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/is-religious-faith-a-psychological-defense-mechanism/

Oh, and the second to the last and third to the last lines were my mistakes, it was YAKMAN that said that and not gejable.

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AIDS and HIV are two aspects of world society we now have come to take for granted since its emergence in the 1980s. The disease and the virus that causes it have become staple facts that no one dares to challenge.

However, the ease and availability of information via the internet have made it possible for myths and propaganda to be challenged, and recently AIDS dissidents have found a voice to air their side. The basic facts about AIDS commonly accepted now:

  • HIV is the virus that causes AIDS.
  • HIV was first contracted in Africa from monkeys.
  • HIV is primarily transmitted through sexual contact with infected partners, secondarily from infected needles, tertiarily from infected mothers to their infants.
  • Irresponsible homosexual males and intravenous drug abusers are at high risk from AIDS, but everyone is at risk from the disease.
  • These are the facts, or are they? What if like many things taken for granted, AIDS is simply the product of clever marketing and potent propaganda?

    Gary Null produced a video that tackles these very issues and provides a venue for AIDS dissidents to speak out. Check out Null’s work here.

    The debate that has sparked since Null’s documentary have people taking rabid sides. Two websites present their arguments and counter-arguments on this issue:

    1. VirusMyth is a website dedicated to AIDS dissidents presented by Gary Null. They compile petitions, testimonials, and research disproving the basic facts about AIDS.
    2. In response to VirusMyth, AIDSTruth.org was formed to debunk the counter-arguments of AIDS dissidents, classifying them as denialists and their research as pseudo-science. The website presents research of its own that answes the basic challenges of AIDS denialists.

    Considering the massive global funding on AIDS, this debate is one of the most controversial of our times and is a perfect study in the ability of an idea to take on a life of its own.

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    Let us first start with the definitions: http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/faith

    faith audio� (fth) KEY NOUN:

    1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
    2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
    3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one’s supporters.
    4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God’s will.
    5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
    6. A set of principles or beliefs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism

    In Freudian psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisms or defense mechanisms (see -ce/-se) are psychological strategies brought into play by various entities to cope with reality and to maintain self-image. Healthy persons normally use different defences throughout life. An ego defence mechanism becomes pathological only when its persistent use leads to maladaptive behavior such that the physical and/or mental health of the individual is adversely affected. The purpose of the Ego Defence Mechanisms is to protect the mind/self/ego from anxiety, social sanctions or to provide a refuge from a situation with which one cannot currently cope.[1]

    Let’s use the definition of faith in number two. The person concerned does not believe his religion due to rationalization but probably due to authority. I personally don’t find anything wrong with having a belief which has not been validated by rationality. What seems weird though is, some people believe that their beliefs are definitely the truth with no room for error. Now that seems stretching it a bit too far. We all know that when we were kids we believed that our parents were infallible. But as we grew up we noticed that they just simply knew more. Now why would grown up humans, supposedly rational at that, actually believe that some supposedly representative of God is infallible. Has there even been any perfect track record of that person? Has the that organization which supposedly represents God been acting immaculately clean? To put everything in perspective, let us think that this religious organization is a company which your pretty freshly graduating daughter would want to apply to for a job. Say you are looking for a company, not only for your daughter’s financial future, but also for her moral well being. These would possibly be a list of a few requirements:

    1. The company or its employees should have no history of criminal activity.
    2. The company’s employees should have no history of internal sexual harrassment.
    3. The company should be ethical in its principles.
    4. The company should always tell the truth and not tell half lies in order to save itself.
    5. The company should not use fear in order to be followed.

    Now since religion is primarily for being good and going to heaven, it should not only pass the above requirements, but should actually pass it with flying colors. So, does your religion pass? Is my analogy reasonable? To put it more bluntly, would you let your pretty daughter get employed in a company which employs several people who are accused of sexual harassment or even sexual intercourse with minors of the same sex? And worse of all manages to shuffle them to another location where they are near other minors instead of quarantining them? If they can’t pass that simple test! How can you even state that everything they are saying is absolutely true? On to ‘defense mechanisms’. As state in the above quote: “are psychological strategies brought into play by various entities to cope with reality and to maintain self-image” “The purpose of the Ego Defence Mechanisms is to protect the mind/self/ego from anxiety, social sanctions or to provide a refuge from a situation with which one cannot currently cope.” You may ask, what are the realities that a human being has to cope with which is addressed by religion.

    1. To be given hope when one is down.
    2. To be given a parental figure, specially if one feels that he/she is missing such.
    3. To be given hope that there is life after death.
    4. To feel that justice will be given to the ones who have wronged him/her.

    Does the above make sense? I have been to several internet forums where discussions take place. When logic begins to batter believers, usually one angle they resort to is that life will be better if one believes in something, if one has hope.

    Hmm…..

    Try checking out the definition of one of the “psychological defence mechanisms” called “denial”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

    Denial (also called abnegation) is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. [1] The subject may deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether (simple denial), admit the fact but deny its seriousness (minimisation) or admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility (transference). The concept of denial is particularly important to the study of addiction. The theory of denial was first researched seriously by Anna Freud. She classified denial as a mechanism of the immature mind, because it conflicts with the ability to learn from and cope with reality. Where denial occurs in mature minds, it is most often associated with death, dying and rape. More recent research has significantly expanded the scope and utility of the concept. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross used denial as the first of five stages in the psychology of a dying patient, and the idea has been extended to include the reactions of survivors to news of a death. Thus, when parents are informed of the death of a child, their first reaction is often of the form, “No! You must have the wrong house, you can’t mean our child!”

    The problem with this hope is, it seems to fit into this “defense mechanism”. There are 4 levels of defense mechanisms, from the least mature starting with level one to the most mature being level four. Denial is a first level “defense mechanism”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism

    Level 1 Defence Mechanisms

    The mechanisms on this level, when predominating, almost always are severely pathological. These three defences, in conjunction, permit one to effectively rearrange external reality and eliminate the need to cope with reality. The pathological users of these mechanisms frequently appear crazy or insane to others. These are the “psychotic” defences, common in overt psychosis. However, they are found in dreams and throughout childhood as healthy mechanisms.

    They include:

    • Denial: Refusal to accept external reality because it is too threatening; arguing against an anxiety-provoking stimulus by stating it doesn’t exist; resolution of emotional conflict and reduction of anxiety by refusing to perceive or consciously acknowledge the more unpleasant aspects of external reality.
    • Distortion: A gross reshaping of external reality to meet internal needs.
    • Delusional Projection: Grossly frank delusions about external reality, usually of a persecutory nature.

    I don’t know what Psychology officially thinks about religious faith. I don’t know if they even consider my analogies above to be reasonable or if they are just skirting the issue and just being religiously tolerant.

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